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Police shoot, kill armed man outside Scarborough elementary school

KevinB

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They do now, KevinB. As well, I’ve seen ambulances recently transitioning from the older red&white to red&blue.
Damn so I need to follow the speed limit now you say…
Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.
 

Good2Golf

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Damn so I need to follow the speed limit now you say…

I know, I know… 😉

Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.

Yeah, I thought so too. Not sure if it’s meant to be blue, or it’s just a very ‘cool white’, but it definitely has a very blue tint to it, compare even to xenon or LED headlights.
 

lenaitch

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That’s Regulation is a significant wall of text.
In Virginia each LEA has their own policies, which are generally similar based on Virginia Law Enforcement Professional Standards Commission.

Virginia Law
Under Virginia law there are four statutes that typically apply to vehicular pursuits or emergency responses: Va. Code §§ 46.2-920, 46.2-817, 19.2-77, and 46.2-921.1.

Va. Code § 46.2-920
Generally, Va. Code § 46.2-920 provides exemptions from criminal prosecution of traffic laws for drivers of emergency vehicles “when such vehicle is being used in the performance of public services, and when such vehicle is operated under emergency conditions.”

Emergency conditions are not specifically
defined, however, law enforcement officers must be in “the chase or apprehension of violators of the law or persons charged with or suspected of any such violation” or “in response to an emergency call.”

Specifically, drivers of these vehicles, including any “law-enforcement vehicle operated by or under the direction of a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer,” are exempt from certain traffic regulations and may:
• Disregard speed limits;
• Move through posted stops if the speed of
the vehicle is sufficiently reduced to enable it
to pass;
• Park or stop notwithstanding the other
provisions of this chapter;
• Disregard regulations governing a direction
of movement of vehicles turning in specified
directions;
• Move around or pass another vehicle at any
intersection;
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving
vehicles on the left, in a no-passing zone or by crossing the highway center line, on the way to an emergency; and,
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving vehicles by going off the paved or main traveled portion of the roadway on the right.

Law enforcement officers are required to exercise these exemptions “while having due regard for safety of persons and property.”

law intersects with almost exclusively in situations where an injured (or deceased) suspect is suing a law enforcement agency for a violation of his civil rights, typically in a case of excessive force.
Until recently, if a suspect was injured as a result of police action during a pursuit, he would file a federal § 1983 lawsuit against the agency for a violation of his 4th amendment rights.

The U.S. Supreme Court adopted a test to determine the reasonableness of force used against a fleeing suspect in Tennessee v. Garner. Garner outlines a three part test to determine Fourth Amendment Constitutional vehicular pursuit reasonableness, where the:
• Suspect must pose an immediate threat of serious physical harm to the officer or the public;
• Deadly force must have been necessary to prevent escape; and,
• Suspect is given warning, if feasible.
Typically, this test is applied, as it was in Garner, where police use a firearm to prevent the escape of a suspect.
Recently, the U.S. Supreme Court created an extension of its use of force Fourth Amendment reasonableness test to vehicular pursuits. In Scott v. Harris, the police executed a PIT maneuver, which terminated the pursuit and left the suspect a paraplegic. The Court held that “[a] police officer's attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of innocent bystanders does not violate the Fourth Amendment, even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injury or death.”


Additionally, the exemptions only apply when the operator of the emergency vehicle “displays a flashing, blinking, or alternating emergency light or lights;” and, “sounds a siren, exhaust whistle, or air horn designed to give automatically intermittent signals, as may be reasonably necessary.”

Also, the vehicle must be covered by standard motor vehicle liability insurance or a certificate of self insurance.

Furthermore, law enforcement officers will lose these exemptions from criminal prosecution for “conduct constituting reckless disregard of the safety of persons and property.”

In addition to exemptions for criminal prosecution, the statute also has civil liability implications. At the end of subsection B, the statute states that “nothing in this section shall release the operator of any such vehicle from civil liability for failure to use reasonable care in such operation,” although the Virginia Supreme Court has held that “one will not be held negligent per se for the specific acts authorized under the statute.”


Va. Code § 46.2-817
The penalty for eluding or fleeing law enforcement is set forth in Va. Code § 46.2-820. If a person ignores a signal and drives in “wanton or willful” disregard of that signal, he can be subject to a Class 2 misdemeanor. The penalty is increased to a Class 6 felony if the defendant drives in such way as to “interfere with or endanger” the operation of a law enforcement vehicle.

And finally, if a law enforcement officer is killed as a “proximate result of the pursuit,” the defendant can be charged and punished with a Class 4 felony.

Additionally, a defendant’s driver’s license may be suspended for a conviction of this section for either 30 or 90 days.

Va. Code §§ 19.2-77 and 46.2-921.1

Law enforcement officers in Virginia are permitted to cross jurisdictional lines to make warrantless arrests. More specifically, if an officer is in pursuit of a suspect he may “pursue such person anywhere in the Commonwealth and, when actually in close pursuit, may arrest him wherever he is found.”
Motorists also have a duty to yield the right of way to emergency vehicles; failure to do so may be punished as a Class 1 misdemeanor.



VA recently reauthorized High Speed Pursuits after examining the data on them.
Interestingly (to some, I suppose) the codified exemptions under the Ontario HTA for emergency vehicles are limited to posted speed limits and intersections (technically, must stop first).

The Ontario 'suspect vehicle apprehension' regulation came about after a number of inquests where innocent motorists and pedestrians were killed during pursuits for what were initially relatively minor infractions. Back when the earth was still cooling and I was on the road, and before any Police Vehicle Operations training or SUI, we would, admittedly, chase at the drop of a hat for any and all reasons. Luckily, my worst outcome was one wrecker police car (not mine) and a bad guy with a broken are.
 

Haggis

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Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.
Not really. Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances. It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in. Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.

Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care. They will crush you.
 

CBH99

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Not really. Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances. It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in. Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.

Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care. They will crush you.
As someone who used to work EMS before getting hired & mired by Alberta SOLGEN, I was surprised how many people didn’t get out of the way with the same urgency as for the police or fire.


The police? Everybody scoots right over.

Big & loud fire truck? Between their louder sirens (at least here) and blow horns, everybody got right out of their way!

Us? Lights & sirens on, maybe the odd blow of the emergency horn, and some people would just mosey on over when they could…


(Most citizens did get right out of the way tho)
 

KevinB

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As someone who used to work EMS before getting hired & mired by Alberta SOLGEN, I was surprised how many people didn’t get out of the way with the same urgency as for the police or fire.


The police? Everybody scoots right over.
Clearly you don’t drive in Northern Virginia.
Half the driving population thinks they are more important…




Big & loud fire truck? Between their louder sirens (at least here) and blow horns, everybody got right out of their way!
Self preservation kicks in with large Fire vehicles - but the smaller ones, you will see a lot of folks thinking it’s no big deal.

Interestingly (to some, I suppose) the codified exemptions under the Ontario HTA for emergency vehicles are limited to posted speed limits and intersections (technically, must stop first).

The Ontario 'suspect vehicle apprehension' regulation came about after a number of inquests where innocent motorists and pedestrians were killed during pursuits for what were initially relatively minor infractions. Back when the earth was still cooling and I was on the road, and before any Police Vehicle Operations training or SUI, we would, admittedly, chase at the drop of a hat for any and all reasons. Luckily, my worst outcome was one wrecker police car (not mine) and a bad guy with a broken are.
A number of states down here started looking at data on chases.
I looked at a few recently released reports and they came up with a ‘ no chase policy’ was actually more dangerous to the public.
In states or areas that had discontinued ‘high speed’ pursuits the accident and fatalities went up.

I found a non FOUO 2010 VA Crime Commission release on chases.

• Last a median of 3 minutes;
• Travel a median of 1.9 miles;
• Involve automobiles (as opposed to trucks,
SUVs, or motorcycles);
• Occur at night;
• Are initiated on dry road conditions;
• Are initiated in light traffic conditions;
• Are monitored by a supervisor;
• Do not involve any additional patrol units or
outside agencies;
• Are initiated due to a traffic violation or
criminal misdemeanor;
• Result in the arrest of the violator(s);
• Result in additional subsequent charges for
the violator; and,
• Rarely result in injury or death to officers
and violators.


I haven’t seen an recently done ones that are approved for public release.
 

Good2Golf

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Thought we had a Uvalde, TX thread as well, but don’t, so I’ll ‘off-topic’ a bit here.

Unverified backstory to one of the CBP officers who responded to the shooting:

TL;DR: wife/teacher calls him about shooter. He’s getting a haircut, drops everything, borrows the barber’s gun, races to school, ignores Uvalde Police Chief’s direction to remain outside, gets keys off janitor, enters with fellow off-duty CBP officer and suppresses shooter.

 

lenaitch

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Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and driving legislation in other provinces is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal. The
'+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation. As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.

Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.
Just to clarify, I meant to say 'Ontario and other provinces'.
Roger that.
Again being able to articulate the ‘why’ is important.

I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars. Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by…
‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’. I had to badge my way out of a few incidents.
As others have mentioned, flashing blue and red is permitted in Ontario on all emergency vehicles (police, fire, EMS) as well as a few assorted others, such as Conservation Officers. Flashing white is pretty much unregulated as is mostly used as an 'attention getter' since it is unfiltered. Amber is completely unregulated.
Interestingly, blue is still permitted on snow plows, which were the original user, so if it is coming up from behind at a fair clip, it's probably not a snow plow (except in a small northern area I used to work in where one highways operator used to plow at the speed limit, occasionally passing traffic, but I digress).
Not really. Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances. It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in. Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.

Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care. They will crush you.
Another advantage is that it doesn't have a lot of competition from tail and brake lights. During a stint with planning and research during the 1980s, I was working with 3M to develop a blue road flare. It enjoyed some interest they both the company guy and myself both transferred and it seems the whole idea died. Also during that time, we identified a problem during incandescent days where the blue lenses impacted the effective (observed) output intensity. Given that available power was fairly limited, the only solution was to 'de-saturate' the blue to the point that it was appearing white. That, and the fact the blue was less effective during bright daylight, particularly bright winter days. Couple that with dirty lenses and it wasn't enjoying a lot of success.

All that was solved with the advent of LEDs. The problem now is too much light, particularly at night where multiple vehicles are at road scenes, checkpoints, etc. where it can be blinding. In addition, some flashing patterns can 'purple out' red and blue. They are apparently studying reducing warning light output at night but are getting pushback from the 'more is better' crowd.
 

lenaitch

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Thought we had a Uvalde, TX thread as well, but don’t, so I’ll ‘off-topic’ a bit here.

Unverified backstory to one of the CBP officers who responded to the shooting:

TL;DR: wife/teacher calls him about shooter. He’s getting a haircut, drops everything, borrows the barber’s gun, races to school, ignores Uvalde Police Chief’s direction to remain outside, gets keys off janitor, enters with fellow off-duty CBP officer and suppresses shooter.

The one thing my Canadian brain has a hard time getting around is the sheer number of law enforcement agencies involved in these things in the US. The Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District has it's own police service, along with the City of Uvalde plus no doubt a county sheriff as well the State Department of Public Safety (uniform and Texas Rangers) and, of course, the Border Patrol. After the fact, no doubt other federal agencies such as FBI, DOJ, ATF get plugged in.
 

mariomike

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Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care. They will crush you.

From what I saw, the number of "wake effect" collisions around, but not involving, emergency vehicles was pretty high.
 

RangerRay

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Odd that OPP uses only red light and Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue. Most provinces I am familiar with restrict red and blues to police/law enforcement.

What messed me up moving to Manitoba was snow removal equipment using blue and amber.
 

KevinB

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The one thing my Canadian brain has a hard time getting around is the sheer number of law enforcement agencies involved in these things in the US. The Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District has it's own police service, along with the City of Uvalde plus no doubt a county sheriff as well the State Department of Public Safety (uniform and Texas Rangers) and, of course, the Border Patrol. After the fact, no doubt other federal agencies such as FBI, DOJ, ATF get plugged in.
You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting at least 7…

Where I am, the Sheriffs’ Dept supplies the SRO, school board also supplies a Security Officer (retired Deputy in every case in my county). Elementary Schools get 2 Security Officers, Middle Schools get 1 SRO and 1 Security Officer, and High Schools get 2 SRO.

Local Police only service the schools in the town, Sheriffs do all the town and county schools.
SO also has a Tac Team
State Police - each of VA’s 7 Divisions has a Tac Team. They have BearCat armored cars.
FBI - Regional SWAT and because we are in VA HRT is about a 10 min Blackhawk ride.

In theory it’s a streamlined Incident Response.

However I will say that every swinging dick with a badge will show up with an incident relating to their child’s school.
Which means you get USSS, USMS, FBI, DoS DSS, HSI, CBP, DEA, ATF, plus others.
 

Haggis

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Odd that OPP uses only red light and Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue. Most provinces I am familiar with restrict red and blues to police/law enforcement.
O.P.P. use red and blue. One just went past me.
What messed me up moving to Manitoba was snow removal equipment using blue and amber.
What messed me up in the states was that police use only blue - like our snowplows.
 

mariomike

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Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue.

Our city paramedic department operates more than just ambulances, in case you see one in your rear-view mirror with the red lights turned on, or working a scene.

Tahoe, Suburban, Silverado, Taurus, Eldorado, MCI, Kodiak, Freightliner, Durastar, Gators, box trucks, Orion, Mercdes-Benz, Crown Vicoria Police Interceptor, OBI, GMC "New Look", Ford C Series, etc...

None of which are Class F ambulances. Some require CZ licence. Some current, some retired after I did.
 

RangerRay

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O.P.P. use red and blue. One just went past me.

Sorry. I read this and misunderstood:

I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars. Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by…
‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’.
 
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