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Police shoot, kill armed man outside Scarborough elementary school

Booter

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Two rules of thumb when dealing with police officers, Border Services Officer, Game Wardens etc. are:

- be polite as you are following in the footsteps of the last asshole they dealt with; and

- never deliberately piss off someone who can ruin your day.
It really is good advice. My friends that think I should play it different don’t get it- if they act improperly I follow up later. In the moment I don’t make anything worse.

Be it a large municipal agency taking me
Down at gunpoint in an intersection or the agents processing me on my way through a border.
 

Retired AF Guy

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In Ontario, when the Special Investigation Unit invokes its mandate, it becomes their investigation. The control and dissemination of all information is at the sole discretion of the Director or designee. The actual wording of the relevant section of the Act is; "[The Director] shall preserve secrecy in respect of all information obtained by him or her in the course of exercising a power or performing a duty under this Act." A later section empowers the Director to issue public statements at their discretion, which they seldom seem to want to exercise.


I haven't read whether the school in Texas had an SRO. In relation to the shooting near the Toronto school, resource officers have been eradicated from the landscape in Toronto and many other Ontario jurisdictions. Parent groups and school boards didn't like the concept, felt the uniforms were intimidating, police scared the children, or some such thing.
If I remember correctly groups like BLM also had a hand in it; their reasoning was that SROs intimidated certain groups of students.
 

Kat Stevens

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I generally treat the police the same way. I have had several poor interactions with them (in Canada and abroad)- so I default to polite with clear hands. So no one is nervous. I don’t think much about this though- if they are honest and calm and I am honest and calm we have no issues.
Myself, my (then) boss, and a very large loud good ol' boy potential investor from Alabama, were in Guadalajara doing a site recce for a potentially multi million dollar water bottling plant. I was still sort of fresh out of the army at the time. We were going to the potential site when we drove straight into a federal police/army drug interdiction checkpoint. We pulled over and I placed my hands flat on the dashboard immediately, boss looked at me like I had three heads. We were ordered out of the car. Boss and "big Jim" start fumbling around trying to grab their valuables to take with them. I yelled at them both to leave everything except their wallets in the car and GTFO. big Jim chose not to do so, telling everyone he was an American, goddammit(!). He found himself next to the car on the ground with a carbine pointed at his head. I dragged boss off to the area they told us to wait in when we first got out of the car. I told the boss to keep his hands in plain sight, no sudden moves, no prolonged eye contact. Thanks to Big Jim we got way more scrutiny than we would have if he would have stfu and complied. I really think our Canadian passports saved us, and the half carton of smokes that magically disappeared. The guy in charge was polite and professional, but made it clear that maybe I, the serf in the party, should educate the adults about checkpoint etiquette when a .50 cal MG is aimed at your car. Be polite and not get lit up. Not the only story from that ten days where Big Jim almost got us killed.
 

Booter

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Some of the young fellas on those checkpoints are VERY nervous. I always strike a calm demeanour and even if I don’t speak the language I say my answers in even tones.

You guys sound
Lucky you were there. You’d be jugged for sure without the right cash only “fine”
 

daftandbarmy

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Myself, my (then) boss, and a very large loud good ol' boy potential investor from Alabama, were in Guadalajara doing a site recce for a potentially multi million dollar water bottling plant. I was still sort of fresh out of the army at the time. We were going to the potential site when we drove straight into a federal police/army drug interdiction checkpoint. We pulled over and I placed my hands flat on the dashboard immediately, boss looked at me like I had three heads. We were ordered out of the car. Boss and "big Jim" start fumbling around trying to grab their valuables to take with them. I yelled at them both to leave everything except their wallets in the car and GTFO. big Jim chose not to do so, telling everyone he was an American, goddammit(!). He found himself next to the car on the ground with a carbine pointed at his head. I dragged boss off to the area they told us to wait in when we first got out of the car. I told the boss to keep his hands in plain sight, no sudden moves, no prolonged eye contact. Thanks to Big Jim we got way more scrutiny than we would have if he would have stfu and complied. I really think our Canadian passports saved us, and the half carton of smokes that magically disappeared. The guy in charge was polite and professional, but made it clear that maybe I, the serf in the party, should educate the adults about checkpoint etiquette when a .50 cal MG is aimed at your car. Be polite and not get lit up. Not the only story from that ten days where Big Jim almost got us killed.

I had an interesting interaction along those lines in Mexico, during a climbing trip, driving back to Mexico City from the interior.

A police checkpoint appeared on the highway and we pulled over and were searched. I was amazed at how derogatory some of the American passengers were, even though the police were polite, professional, and armed to the teeth with M4 carbines.

I leaned over to one of the mouthy Yanks and pointed out the window to the cop covering the searchers and said 'dust cover open'. He didn't know what that meant so I added 'one up the spout'. He got a bit quieter ;)
 

Good2Golf

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Two rules of thumb when dealing with police officers, Border Services Officer, Game Wardens etc. are:

- be polite as you are following in the footsteps of the last asshole they dealt with; and

- never deliberately piss off someone who can ruin your day.
Amen.

Many good friends/neighbours were OPP in my previous neighbourhood and I did many a ride-along and saw what they have to deal with, and got lots of advice about how one should conduct one’s self if ever the need arose.

Fast forward several years, I’m posted IR, road-running a 3+ hour drive to work late Sunday night, “doing a few knots” on the backroads. I flash past what I quickly assess to be a blacked-out OPP cruiser parked with a PC writing up notes. I could literally see his face light up red from the radar display as I passed him…Uugh. Long story short, I figure I’m done, so I brake quickly to a full stop, pull well off onto the shoulder, drop ALL the windows, turn on the interior lights, turn off the engine, as the PC finishes his U-turn and pulls behind me I place my keys out the window and set them in the roof, then I put both hands on the wheel at the 12 o’clock position and don’t move. He walks up to me, swings his flashlight to the yellow ‘Support our Troops’ decal at the bottom corner of the windshield, then back to me, and asks if I’m headIng to the base? (yes) He said, ‘you were moving pretty good…” I said, “yeah, a lot faster than I should have been, that’s for sure!” (I figured honesty is the best policy.) Long pause, then he hands my license back, and said “please slow down and be safe, not only for others, but for you and your family too. Have a good night.”

He could have easily done me right there, but I figure my ‘Conduct After Capture’ advice from my OPP buddies certainly helped me avoid a thumpin.’
 

Jarnhamar

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Some of the young fellas on those checkpoints are VERY nervous. I always strike a calm demeanour and even if I don’t speak the language I say my answers in even tones.

Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?
 

brihard

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Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?
Definitely happens. And yes, it's allowed. With that said, now with the Mandatory Alcohol Screening provisions that came in a few years ago, it probably just guarantees you're going to be told to provide a sample. Generally speaking at a RIDE check, most people won't be asked for a sample- there's usually too much traffic for that to work. Doing the whole 'window cracked an inch' thing is a great way to bring attention on yourself.
 

daftandbarmy

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Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?

I've stopped and searched hundreds of vehicles, some with the Police in attendance and some not.

My one learning is that most people are just impatient to get on with their day. About half of them are unpredictable and just plain odd. On the other hand some are genuinely nuts, and about 20% are not sober (well, in Ireland anyways ;) ).

It doesn't matter how polite you are as any of them can turn out to be real assholes so, like approaching any species of unpredictable wildlife, it is important to be prepared for anything.

And that's one of the reasons I have so much respect for cops who do this for a living... for years.
 

Jarnhamar

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Definitely happens. And yes, it's allowed. With that said, now with the Mandatory Alcohol Screening provisions that came in a few years ago, it probably just guarantees you're going to be told to provide a sample. Generally speaking at a RIDE check, most people won't be asked for a sample- there's usually too much traffic for that to work. Doing the whole 'window cracked an inch' thing is a great way to bring attention on yourself.
Neat.
So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?

(not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)

What I'm really shocked about is all the OPP in the GTA area pulling over kids doing 170-190kph in cars. Too bad they can't be charged with attempted murder.
 

brihard

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Neat.
So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?

(not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)

What I'm really shocked about is all the OPP in the GTA area pulling over kids doing 170-190kph in cars. Too bad they can't be charged with attempted murder.
Since December 2018, yes. Anyone operating a motor vehicle can be required on demand to give a breath sample into a roadside device by police provided they have one immediately at hand. Previous to this, police required “reasonable suspicion” that a person was operating a motor vehicle with alcohol in their body, but many were evading detection under that standard. I left the road not too long after the new provisions, but even in that brief time I caught a few drivers by MAS screening that I would not previously have demanded a sample from, for lack of grounds to make the demand.
 

KevinB

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Neat.
So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?

(not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)

What I'm really shocked about is all the OPP in the GTA area pulling over kids doing 170-190kph in cars. Too bad they can't be charged with attempted murder.
I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.

Most states and provinces have criminal charges for excessive speed.
In addition to several other criminal charges, basically something along the lines of reckless endangerment.

Most Police cars doing Highway work have pretty good engines and suspensions, but aren’t nearly as fast as their radio ;)
 

Haggis

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I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.
In Ontario anything over 50 km/h is considered street racing or stunt driving. 7 day roadside licence suspension, 14 day roadside vehicle seizure (regardless of who actually owns the vehicle) and up to a $10 K fine on conviction under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act. That's separate from any charges under the Criminal Code for dangerous operation, etc.
Most Police cars doing Highway work have pretty good engines and suspensions, but aren’t nearly as fast as their radio ;)
In Ontario, police pursuits are governed by Regulation. I commute almost daily on the ON 401/QC 20 and 40. There is the occasional driver who channels their inner Mr. Sulu.
 

KevinB

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In Ontario anything over 50 km/h is considered street racing or stunt driving. 7 day roadside licence suspension, 14 day roadside vehicle seizure (regardless of who actually owns the vehicle) and up to a $10 K fine on conviction.

In Ontario, police pursuits are governed by Regulation.
That’s Regulation is a significant wall of text.
In Virginia each LEA has their own policies, which are generally similar based on Virginia Law Enforcement Professional Standards Commission.

Virginia Law
Under Virginia law there are four statutes that typically apply to vehicular pursuits or emergency responses: Va. Code §§ 46.2-920, 46.2-817, 19.2-77, and 46.2-921.1.

Va. Code § 46.2-920
Generally, Va. Code § 46.2-920 provides exemptions from criminal prosecution of traffic laws for drivers of emergency vehicles “when such vehicle is being used in the performance of public services, and when such vehicle is operated under emergency conditions.”

Emergency conditions are not specifically
defined, however, law enforcement officers must be in “the chase or apprehension of violators of the law or persons charged with or suspected of any such violation” or “in response to an emergency call.”

Specifically, drivers of these vehicles, including any “law-enforcement vehicle operated by or under the direction of a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer,” are exempt from certain traffic regulations and may:
• Disregard speed limits;
• Move through posted stops if the speed of
the vehicle is sufficiently reduced to enable it
to pass;
• Park or stop notwithstanding the other
provisions of this chapter;
• Disregard regulations governing a direction
of movement of vehicles turning in specified
directions;
• Move around or pass another vehicle at any
intersection;
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving
vehicles on the left, in a no-passing zone or by crossing the highway center line, on the way to an emergency; and,
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving vehicles by going off the paved or main traveled portion of the roadway on the right.

Law enforcement officers are required to exercise these exemptions “while having due regard for safety of persons and property.”

law intersects with almost exclusively in situations where an injured (or deceased) suspect is suing a law enforcement agency for a violation of his civil rights, typically in a case of excessive force.
Until recently, if a suspect was injured as a result of police action during a pursuit, he would file a federal § 1983 lawsuit against the agency for a violation of his 4th amendment rights.

The U.S. Supreme Court adopted a test to determine the reasonableness of force used against a fleeing suspect in Tennessee v. Garner. Garner outlines a three part test to determine Fourth Amendment Constitutional vehicular pursuit reasonableness, where the:
• Suspect must pose an immediate threat of serious physical harm to the officer or the public;
• Deadly force must have been necessary to prevent escape; and,
• Suspect is given warning, if feasible.
Typically, this test is applied, as it was in Garner, where police use a firearm to prevent the escape of a suspect.
Recently, the U.S. Supreme Court created an extension of its use of force Fourth Amendment reasonableness test to vehicular pursuits. In Scott v. Harris, the police executed a PIT maneuver, which terminated the pursuit and left the suspect a paraplegic. The Court held that “[a] police officer's attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of innocent bystanders does not violate the Fourth Amendment, even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injury or death.”


Additionally, the exemptions only apply when the operator of the emergency vehicle “displays a flashing, blinking, or alternating emergency light or lights;” and, “sounds a siren, exhaust whistle, or air horn designed to give automatically intermittent signals, as may be reasonably necessary.”

Also, the vehicle must be covered by standard motor vehicle liability insurance or a certificate of self insurance.

Furthermore, law enforcement officers will lose these exemptions from criminal prosecution for “conduct constituting reckless disregard of the safety of persons and property.”

In addition to exemptions for criminal prosecution, the statute also has civil liability implications. At the end of subsection B, the statute states that “nothing in this section shall release the operator of any such vehicle from civil liability for failure to use reasonable care in such operation,” although the Virginia Supreme Court has held that “one will not be held negligent per se for the specific acts authorized under the statute.”


Va. Code § 46.2-817
The penalty for eluding or fleeing law enforcement is set forth in Va. Code § 46.2-820. If a person ignores a signal and drives in “wanton or willful” disregard of that signal, he can be subject to a Class 2 misdemeanor. The penalty is increased to a Class 6 felony if the defendant drives in such way as to “interfere with or endanger” the operation of a law enforcement vehicle.

And finally, if a law enforcement officer is killed as a “proximate result of the pursuit,” the defendant can be charged and punished with a Class 4 felony.

Additionally, a defendant’s driver’s license may be suspended for a conviction of this section for either 30 or 90 days.

Va. Code §§ 19.2-77 and 46.2-921.1

Law enforcement officers in Virginia are permitted to cross jurisdictional lines to make warrantless arrests. More specifically, if an officer is in pursuit of a suspect he may “pursue such person anywhere in the Commonwealth and, when actually in close pursuit, may arrest him wherever he is found.”
Motorists also have a duty to yield the right of way to emergency vehicles; failure to do so may be punished as a Class 1 misdemeanor.



VA recently reauthorized High Speed Pursuits after examining the data on them.
 

lenaitch

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I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.

Most states and provinces have criminal charges for excessive speed.
In addition to several other criminal charges, basically something along the lines of reckless endangerment.

Most Police cars doing Highway work have pretty good engines and suspensions, but aren’t nearly as fast as their radio ;)
Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and driving legislation in other provinces is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal. The
'+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation. As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.

Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.
 

KevinB

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Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and driving legislation in other provinces is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal. The
'+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation. As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.

Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.
Roger that.
Again being able to articulate the ‘why’ is important.

I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars. Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by…
‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’. I had to badge my way out of a few incidents.
 

Good2Golf

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They do now, KevinB. As well, I’ve seen ambulances recently transitioning from the older red&white to red&blue.
 
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