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Mandatory Vaccination by November 15

Kilted

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No kidding. Outside of BOR/ HQ offices, my unit had three computers for the rifle company. Nobody below section 2ic would have any reason to go on one or even have a DWAN account.
And those three computers belong to three specific people and no one else is allowed to use them, or they are behind locked doors no one has access to. Then there are people being told that they don't need a DWAN account because who ever is responsible doesn't want to do the work involved.
 

hattrick72

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Should the CAF pay to move someone who is released after refusing to deploy overseas because it's too dangerous?

DND considers the messes and gyms as part of the workplace for harassment policy purposes, ergo they cannot ask for vaccine status. Only people that get asked are non-DND civilian associates.
I believe bases are limiting access to the gym to vaccinated only.
 

Zoomie

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DND considers the messes and gyms as part of the workplace for harassment policy purposes, ergo they cannot ask for vaccine status. Only people that get asked are non-DND civilian associates.
There is zero direction that states that.

The CAF follows local provincial health orders - just like how we follow liquor license laws. If you attend the Mess in its capacity as a drinking establishment, you show your proof of vaccination. There’s no privacy laws being impacted here, you are aware that if you walk in the Mess you will be asked for proof - if you don’t want to show proof, you don’t walk in the Mess. I don’t get why this is such a complicated topic.
 

PuckChaser

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Thanks for the"shut up and do what you're told" answer, super helpful. Back to reality, workplaces are exempt vaccination proof requirements in Ontario. You're suggesting we've created Shrondingers Mess where they're both simultaneously a workplace for harassment purposes but not a workplace for vaccine mandates. If you cant see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you any further.
 

hattrick72

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Everybody in the CAF will have some interaction under PaCE - as briefed by DMCPG on Wednesday.
Thank you for the heads up, I'll be waiting for direction to come down to me through email as it filters through the different chains.

Hopefully I still get a pay cheque come November 15th if some units are more latent than others.
 

Jarnhamar

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The latest email I had regarding mess's on my base and proof of vaccination stated DND military and civilian members are not required to show proof of vaccination for official and work related events (I recently attended a mess event and was not required to show proof of vaccination).

Email goes on to state anyone going to the mess as a part of a private event such as a wedding had to show proof of vaccination, whether they were civilian or military.
 

Navy_Pete

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ATL/BTL don't participate in PDR or PER process, unless this has changed under PACE?
ATL do participate in PERs; you get an exemption for the relevant time period if it runs over the majority of the period or a PER for the portion of the reporting period you aren't on the ATL. BTL pers may not get a PER due to rank, but you are still supposed to keep div notes and give feedback via PDR if they are doing OJT; and otherwise they are covered under course reports.
 

brihard

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Thanks for the"shut up and do what you're told" answer, super helpful. Back to reality, workplaces are exempt vaccination proof requirements in Ontario. You're suggesting we've created Shrondingers Mess where they're both simultaneously a workplace for harassment purposes but not a workplace for vaccine mandates. If you cant see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you any further.

But that’s nonetheless the fact set. Messes get their liquor licences provincially; while they are part of the military’s physical infrastructure, they still have to follow provincial laws around things like alcohol service.

Besides that, it’s entirely reasonable for the military to mandate proof of vaccines to enter a mess for social purposes. It’s a nonessential activity, it’s a congregate setting with risk of virus spread, and such virus spread is an operational liability. CAF already knows that everyone serving has a range of other vaccines that fulfil the same purpose for other viruses. Because Covid, and vaccines therefor, are new on the scene, novel mechanisms are required to ensure that same protection.

CAF members are free to simply not go to the mess on their own time, same as they’re free to not go to Boston Pizza. But the simple reality is that Covid vaccination will now be a basic employment requirement. CAF members can choose to continue to serve with CAF or not. Freedom of choice is not freedom from consequences.
 
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hattrick72

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ATL do participate in PERs; you get an exemption for the relevant time period if it runs over the majority of the period or a PER for the portion of the reporting period you aren't on the ATL. BTL pers may not get a PER due to rank, but you are still supposed to keep div notes and give feedback via PDR if they are doing OJT; and otherwise they are covered under course reports.
That makes sense, I don't have any experience with ATL. BTL members that have come to work under me for OJT were given PDR. However, I didn't think BTL section would give PDR.

I'm a good 6-7 years away from a per now, so I wasn't even writing about PACE until I had summer employment.
 

kev994

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If that is happening, then it is local decision. Other bases have declared the gym an essential service to CAF members and therefore allow access without proof.
In Trenton you need proof of vaccination for the gym except if doing a force test, for the mess and dining hall except for mess dinner (don’t shoot the messenger on that last one, that’s just what it says).
 

kev994

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Equally troubling in this thread is those people who are stating they don’t have MM access or it doesn’t work for them. I heavily recommend you get that figured out ASAP, PaCE is here and everyone should have filled out their JD and MAP already. Less than a week until your first debrief session.
I didn’t see a DWAN station the entire time I was OUTCAN, go figure the USCG isn’t set up for access to a foreign country’s intranet.
 

Jarnhamar

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If only we had a mechanism for someone to make one set of rules that apply to every building, and every employee.
 

Zoomie

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Thanks for the"shut up and do what you're told" answer, super helpful. Back to reality, workplaces are exempt vaccination proof requirements in Ontario. You're suggesting we've created Shrondingers Mess where they're both simultaneously a workplace for harassment purposes but not a workplace for vaccine mandates. If you cant see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you any further.
I think Brihard already summed this up quite succinctly - but here’s my thoughts (definitely not telling you to shut up and obey).

The Mess is sometimes used for official CAF functions outside of the private military club setting - like H&A ceremonies or Working Ground, under those circumstances you would not require proof of vaccination - for the reasons that Brihard mentioned. If the bar is open and liquor is flowing, it now falls under the auspices of being a “non-essential activity” which, legislated under provincial health mandate, requires proof of vaccination of everyone with a heartbeat. This is the only way that local commanders are allowing Messes to be “open” and serve alcohol.
 

Kat Stevens

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So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?
 

Kilted

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So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?
They are the PMC, I'm sure that they can arrive before anyone starts checking. In fact they are probably responsible to delegate the vaccine checking person.
 

brihard

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So, PMC enters the mess every day, Monday to Friday to do PMC stuff. No vacc check. PMC goes to a wedding reception at the mess on a Saturday and is required to show vacc proof. Monday, back to PMC stuff, no check. Am I reading that correctly? Same for bar staff?
May vary by province. I know Ontario doesn’t require vaccines for the staff at establishments (which is weird- thanks Doug Ford), but I can’t speak to others.

There is of course a difference between a PMC attending to work in his or her office, versus a patron attending to eat and drink and socialize.

Now, with the new federal mandate, my understanding is anyone working on federal property will need to be vaccinated. Not sure how that would apply to non-CAF (NPF?) mess staff, but likely they will need to be as per of the federal effort to achieve fully vaccinated workplaces. And, of everything in the federal sphere, CAF is the easiest for which to justify this due to its unique operational imperatives.
 
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