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Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response

RocketRichard

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mariomike said:
Schools are now being designed to make it more difficult for active shooters.

Curved hallways to reduce a shooter’s range, jutting barriers to provide cover and egress, and meticulously spaced classrooms that can lock on demand and hide students in the corner, out of a shooter’s sight.

Similar to zig zag in trench warfare.
I don’t believe this has been a factor in construction nor remodelling of Canadian schools.


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mariomike

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The new schoolhouse design might, or might not, help prevent something similar to the Columbine disaster where Coach Saunders lay bleeding from a GSW. He was shot at 11:26 . Paramedics finally reached him at 15:24 Unfortunately, he had bled out by then.

It's not just schools. Big box stores, open bars, night clubs, outdoor events like the country music festival in Las Vegas or the garlic festival in California.

RTF may not be the correct response at these scenes, at least in concept, since there are no hallways, there are no hidden corners left for victims to secure themselves in, or for the shooter to find cover and concealment.

Is it an active shooter or a barricaded sniper in an elevated position? RTF is of limited use in some events, as the number of victims are increasing and, more importantly, the types of environments in which they are being injured and killed are evolving.

 

The Bread Guy

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RomeoJuliet said:
I don’t believe this has been a factor in construction nor remodelling of Canadian schools.
Yet ...  :(
 

RocketRichard

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milnews.ca said:
Yet ...  :(
I remain optimistic that we will not have major issues for school (K-12) shootings. I believe there have been 4 in Canada. One is far too many.


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FSTO

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What has happened to society that we are even contemplating having to specially design schools to limit the carnage from an active shooter?

Back when I was in school in rural Manitoba in the 70's, there was likely more firepower sitting in the parking lot of my high school then was in the local hardware store or at the RCMP detachment. We had bullies, we had fist fights, we had schoolmates with I'm sure dark thoughts in their heads. But we never ever considered going out to the pickup or (in the case of town kids) going home to get a rifle to shoot up the school, never crossed my mind and I was one angry SOB in my last couple of years at high school.
So what happened?
 

RocketRichard

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FSTO said:
What has happened to society that we are even contemplating having to specially design schools to limit the carnage from an active shooter?

Back when I was in school in rural Manitoba in the 70's, there was likely more firepower sitting in the parking lot of my high school then was in the local hardware store or at the RCMP detachment. We had bullies, we had fist fights, we had schoolmates with I'm sure dark thoughts in their heads. But we never ever considered going out to the pickup or (in the case of town kids) going home to get a rifle to shoot up the school, never crossed my mind and I was one angry SOB in my last couple of years at high school.
So what happened?
I think that designing schools to counter active shooters is happening in American society not Canadian society. 


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mariomike

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For anyone interested in modern facility management,

The Role of Buildings in Mass Shootings
https://www.buildings.com/article-details/articleid/16988/title/the-role-of-buildings-in-mass-shootings/viewall/true




























   
   

 

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brihard

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Am I the only seeing the flaw in the plan?

If you make it harder for the active shooter to do his work by reducing sight line and providing cover/egress routes that are protected, or hiding corners in classrooms, you are also providing the shooter with all those same protections against the police trying to intervene to stop him.

He will be slower at getting at a large number of students, but the police will have to clear each one of those obstacles not knowing who they will find behind each one, and so will also be a lot slower.

You greatly overestimate how much this would slow police, I think. An active shooter response isn’t slow, thorough, or methodical when things are still happening. It’s an advance to contact, driven by immediately perceived intelligence- sound of shots, screams, immediate info from victims/witnesses. It’s not “barricade right” or piecing the pie for every cubby. A lot gets bypassed. Yes, a shooter very deliberately choosing to fight police would enjoy those advantages too- but if they have goal-reoriented to fight police, that’s still a good thing in contrast with shooting kids. 100% of the time, police will win.

Remius said:
Do most shooters not normally stop when police arrive on scene and engage?  Don't quote me on this but when police arrive and contain a situation a lot of these guys end up shooting themselves.  is it not more beneficial to reduce casualties at the onset and then let the police do their jobs however long it takes?

Exactly correct. The goal of any use of force by police is a change in subject behaviour. From “active threat”, i.e., shooting kids, anything is an improvement. The possibilities generally are suicide (common), barricade and negotiate (uncommon but it happens), or fight it out to death or capture. Barricade and negotiate (to surrender) is ‘best case’. Suicide will do in a pinch. If they fight it out that will suck, but better they goal reorient on fighting a fight against police that will rapidly become extremely unfair and that they will lose.

There’s a portion of an episode from the TV show “19:2” (fictionalized version of Montreal police) that we use as an intro when we teach active shooter. Skip to 7:30 for the start. The tactics are less than stellar, but it’s about as good as a TV show will get for what a response to a school shooting will feel like as it’s happening. The officers in the show do keep pushing to the threat, which is realistic. And you see the impacts of human emotions as they might play out to responders, as well as efforts to establish command and control in real time. Fog of war, and collapsing situational awareness play out too. Caution: very graphic. https://vimeo.com/179291152
 

mariomike

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Brihard said:
There’s a portion of an episode from the TV show “19:2” (factionalized version of Montreal police) that we use as an intro when we teach active shooter.

Apparently based on the 2006 Dawson College shooting in Montreal. 1 killed. 19 injured. Perp committed suicide.

Calgary Rescue Task Force ( RTF )
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ul85uqxff6webct/AAA7ZYvTWFwbZQ0J5rAKJ3G9a?dl=0&preview=RTF+B-ROLL+for+MEDIA.mp4





 

daftandbarmy

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Fire is still a far greater threat to life and limb, statistically, than mass shootings. It would make sense to design buildings accordingly, which I think most of them already are.
 

mariomike

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daftandbarmy said:
Fire is still a far greater threat to life and limb, statistically, than mass shootings. It would make sense to design buildings accordingly, which I think most of them already are.

I think what our emergency services are considering is having large masses herded into crowded and confined hallways. Moving along a straight corridor in mass during an ASHE.

Pulling the fire alarm in a school or high-rise could 
unlock every door in the building (or at least the stair towers).

Victims could be channeled into crowded and predictable avenues of egress where they can be intercepted and shot. Or targeted at the designated assembly point.

It's not just schools and buildings that require planning.

For open air festivals they recommend perimeter fences, roving police patrols, drones, security cameras, social media monitoring, bag checks, metal detectors, restricted entry and an “overwatch” police unit that monitors the event from a high perch.

August, 2019

Mass Casualty Trauma Triage Paradigms and Pitfalls
https://www.jems.com/articles/news/2019/08/report-mass-casualty-trauma-triage-paradigms-and-pitfalls.html

The report suggests the traditional triage approach used by paramedics for decades is no longer feasible to effectively respond to ASHE.


 

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mariomike

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NYPD's Counter Terrorism Unit, Tweets about NYC's first day of school.
https://twitter.com/NYPDCT/status/1169344639599554561 …
 

RocketRichard

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mariomike said:
NYPD's Counter Terrorism Unit, Tweets about NYC's first day of school.
https://twitter.com/NYPDCT/status/1169344639599554561 …
IMHO inappropriate in conjunction with back to school. Different scene in the U.S. I suppose.


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The Bread Guy

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This (19-minute podcast) from the NJ DHS ...
Mental illnesses are extremely common; mass violence is not. Despite the fear and public scrutiny, mass shootings are statistically rare events. But it is hard for most people to imagine that a mentally healthy person would deliberately commit an act of mass murder; thus, it is often assumed that the perpetrators of mass violence must be mentally ill. There is a tendency to overuse mental health problems as an explanation for violence, but the relationship is far more complex than typically presented. While there is a modest link between mental illness and violence, there is no basis for a generalized fear of people with mental illness. Having a mental illness does not predispose someone to violence of any type, and certainly not mass violence. 

In our Season Four finale, Steve Crimando of the New Jersey Department of Human Services’ Disaster and Terrorism Branch joins us again to unpack this complicated relationship and offer insights into the programs and resources that address both mental health and mass violence in the State ...
 

Jarnhamar

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-church-shooting-latest-jack-wilson-suspect-keith-thomas-kinnunen-white-settlement-fort-worth-a9265041.html



Man brought a shotgun (I think I read) to a crowded church of over 200 and started shooting. Within 6 seconds he already killed 2 but another man, a firearms instructor, stood up and shot him once putting an end to the shooting and undoubtedly saving many more lives.

6 seconds is a pretty solid response time to end a shooting.
 

Kat Stevens

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Saw the video. Single head shot from 15-20 metres away, then other armed guys swarm toward the perpetrator.
 

OldSolduer

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Target Up said:
Saw the video. Single head shot from 15-20 metres away, then other armed guys swarm toward the perpetrator.

I've seen the video as well. One hell of a shot.

Saves an expensive trial and lengthy incarceration.
 

Infanteer

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On one hand, you can applaud the use of firearms to end a situation with a rampaging gunman.

On the other hand, you can lament the fact that the average American needs to be armed in a church, a school, or a waffle house to ensure they are safe from rampaging gunmen.  I'll take Canada over that any day.
 

CBH99

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Not to sound morbid, just professionally curious.

Is the video of him responding in the news link??  It kept jumbling around while loading various ads, I couldn't find it.  If it's there, I'll take another look.  Sounds worth watching.
 

FJAG

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CBH99 said:
Not to sound morbid, just professionally curious.

Is the video of him responding in the news link??  It kept jumbling around while loading various ads, I couldn't find it.  If it's there, I'll take another look.  Sounds worth watching.

This link is about the machete attack oin New York but some two paras down contains an uncut version of the shooting in Texas.

https://pluralist.com/granfton-thomas-hate-crimes-jews-friends-say-hes-not-violent/49999/?fbclid=IwAR0D0AgMuxO4PGg8FZJB7wDhqpMCVLpIjgETEvdUDlcbLTlblmhLbKvDgeA

 
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