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Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response

larry Strong

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Larry Strong said:
The legislators are sitting smugly behind their desks comfortable in the knowledge that they have enough security around them in the building to stop a threat at the doors......in comparison to schools..........



Cheers
Larry


https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440

.....The armed officer on duty at the Florida school where a shooter killed 17 people never went inside to engage the gunman and has been placed under investigation, officials announced Thursday......

Those kids were left to die......FML



Cheers
Larry
 

garb811

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Larry Strong said:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440

.....The armed officer on duty at the Florida school where a shooter killed 17 people never went inside to engage the gunman and has been placed under investigation, officials announced Thursday......

Those kids were left to die......FML



Cheers
Larry
In addition to what Recceguy said, there needs to be some caution to jumping to conclusions as to how this person reacted for a few reasons (without getting too specific about TTPs):

1)  I've been trained on several iterations of IARD and in none of them is the drill to go in alone.  In fact, the explicit direction has always been to never go in alone.
2)  In one of the iterations I was trained in, the job of the first member on scene is to essentially act as OSCAR until relieved by a senior member.  Determine the closest entry point to the shooter, set up a RV for responding pers to go to and coordinate the initial teams going in.
3)  IARD drills are always run fully kitted.  Vest, plate, helmet, carbine, then you go in as a team.  I'm guessing a school resource officer would not have that at hand.

This member may have been reacting exactly as the very department which is criticizing them trained them to do.  If that is the case and that member now not only has to live with knowing all of those kids and teachers died on their watch but they have now been scapegoated and thrown to the wolves for reacting as they were trained to...
 

mariomike

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Larry Strong said:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440

To add,

QUOTE

Peterson resigned after he was suspended without pay by ( Sheriff ) Israel pending an internal investigation into his actions during the shooting that left 17 people dead, Israel said. Peterson was eligible for retirement.

( Sheriff ) Israel told reporters Peterson should have "went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer."

Instead, the deputy waited outside for about four minutes.

"What I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of building 12, take up a position," Israel said of the video. "And he never went in."

Peterson held several jobs, including working as a security guard and stock clerk, before he was hired as a sheriff's deputy in 1985, according to his personnel records. He also served in the military, he told the sheriff's office. Peterson, who attended Florida International University, was largely lauded for his performance on the job, including garnering two deputy of the year nominations in recent years, the personnel records show.

In 2015, Israel noted Peterson's then-30-year tenure. "Your dedication and allegiance are the best illustrations of the service [the sheriff's office] provides to the people of Broward County," Israel wrote, according to the records.


Two sheriff's deputies on restricted duty

( Sheriff ) Israel said two other deputies have been placed on restricted duty while the sheriff's office investigates their actions during calls to the gunman's home before the shooting.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

END QUOTE

"You don't wait for SWAT; you push in and eliminate the shooter," Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fla-sheriff-orders-deputies-carry-rifles-school-grounds-article-1.3834359


Former Broward Sheriff Al Lamberti: “These events are over in three to five minutes. You don't have the luxury to wait. You might not have the best equipment, you might have small numbers, but you're armed. Those kids are not armed. You have to go in and engage the shooter."

"Since the Columbine school shooting that left 12 dead in 1999, cops have been trained not to wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and kill the threat."
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html




 

pbi

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MCG said:
...We know the mind functions subconsciously in was to preserve itself.  We know people are biologically prone to freeze, fight or flight in ways over which they are not in control. If you put armed defenders into schools and do not specifically and routinely train them to take a pistol into a fight against an assault rifle, those defenders will routinely fail you when assault rifles are brought to hunt children...

Which is why I am extremely skeptical that "arming teachers" is in any way a useful response to this type of threat. Most of us here have spent many hours on weapons ranges, firing our own weapons or teaching others to fire theirs. Others amongst us have fired weapons in the confusion and tension of combat.

We know that it takes a lot of empty casings and time to produce a shooter who is any good at hitting a moving target with a rifle, never mind a pistol. We know that training has to be refreshed regularly or it fades. We also know that just putting rounds into a Fig 12 doesn't by itself prepare you to use your weapon in conditions of fear, confusion and panic when surrounding by dozens (or hundreds) of panicking people.

Most teachers (OK I'm speculating here....) are not necessarily firearms enthusiasts nor have any handling experience. Not their fault, any more than they aren't  airplane mechanics or toaster collectors: not really a relevant skill set. And I hope it never has to be.

The teachers I know well have frequently explained to me how very little time they are given to prepare their classes or do anything else their profession requires. Now, discounting that a bit of that might be the sort of whining about our jobs we all do, I don't know where you're going to find the time to produce teachers who are excellent at teaching (ie: why have teachers and schools in the first place...) but can be trusted to strap on a sidearm in a class full of kids, then use it effectively in that panicky moment when  or "if."--remember these incidents are actually rare in the big scheme of things--a shooter gets into the school.

Not the answer, in my opinion. The measures that I would support are:

-regular inside patrols by the local LEA;

-more common sense and practical education for all parties on recognizing the signs of mental disorder;

-properly trained and armed security guards whose business it is to know how to use deadly force;

-effective metal detectors and possibly backpack checks (like Canada's Wonderland where thousands pour through the gates every day); and

-effective controlled access system. We have swipe cards to get into our workplaces or onto the transit: why not for schools?
 

mariomike

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pbi said:
Which is why I am extremely skeptical that "arming teachers" is in any way a useful response to this type of threat.

Arming a percentage of teachers was suggested because the cost ( not including the gun and training ) would only involve adding a "bonus" to their regular salary.

pbi said:
-regular inside patrols by the local LEA;

I believe the school had a Deputy, a School Resource Officer ( SRO ) permanently stationed at the school full-time. An SRO also has the advantage of knowing the layout and routines of the school staff and students - and who to watch out for - better than a patrol officer would.

pbi said:
-properly trained and armed security guards whose business it is to know how to use deadly force;

Using armed veterans for guard duty has also been suggested,
https://www.bing.com/search?q=trump+veterans+schools&filters=ex1%3a%22ez5_17575_17585%22&go=Search&qs=ds&qpvt=trump+veterans+schools

The ROE, according to the Sheriff, seems direct: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”

The Sheriff's deputy failed to go in.

Would a private security guard, or military veteran ( presumably earning less than a police officer ) be more / or less likely to: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.” than a Deputy?

That's not a rhetorical question.




 

pbi

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mariomike said:
Arming a percentage of teachers was suggested because the cost ( not including the gun and training ) would only involve adding a "bonus" to their regular salary.

Using armed veterans for guard duty has also been suggested,
https://www.bing.com/search?q=trump+veterans+schools&filters=ex1%3a%22ez5_17575_17585%22&go=Search&qs=ds&qpvt=trump+veterans+schools

The ROE, according to the Sheriff, seems direct: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”

The Sheriff's deputy failed to go in.

Would a private security guard or military veteran ( presumably earning less than police officers or armed teachers ) be more / or less likely to: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”?

That's not a rhetorical question.

Good points MarioMike. But, nothing personal, I really don't buy the "arming teachers" thing as a truly useful measure. To me, the issue is to stop these people before they even get into the school at all. Once in the school, amongst hundreds of people in a maze of rooms and corridors, it becomes much more difficult, and IMHO the possibility of collateral deaths and injuries goes way up.

And, yes, good question about the guards. My theoretical answer lies in the training and experience of these guards, and the ROE each state's law would permit. Clearly not just Joe the Rent-a-Cop. I haven't analyzed it further than that.
 

pbi

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Jarnhamar said:
People with firearms protect money, wild animals, malls, jewelry, parks, car lots, movie stars, musicians, empty buildings. But we balk at the idea of adding a layer of protection to protecting children by arming teachers.

Jarnhamar: I don't know if "we" balk". I know I do, for the reasons I stated. And, I'm not sure how well-trained or effective any of the examples are you listed.  For a school I would want armed security of a high standard. I'm assuming you're referring to US in your list: I haven't seen any armed security in malls, car lots, music shows or empty buildings in this country.
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
People with firearms protect money, wild animals, malls, jewelry, parks, car lots, movie stars, musicians, empty buildings. But we balk at the idea of adding a layer of protection to protecting children by arming teachers.

That is true. eg: Armed guards on armoured trucks have been around for many years. I remember when - in addition to their .38s in "flap" holsters - they carried shotguns into stores - now they leave it in the truck with the driver.

The difference with schools etc. is that armoured truck robbers are generally only interested in the money, as opposed to mass murder.

It's the exact opposite with school shooters.

As Willie Sutton said when asked, "Why do you rob banks?"

"Because that's where the money is."  :)

 

Jarnhamar

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pbi said:
Jarnhamar: I don't know if "we" balk". I know I do, for the reasons I stated. And, I'm not sure how well-trained or effective any of the examples are you listed.  For a school I would want armed security of a high standard. I'm assuming you're referring to US in your list: I haven't seen any armed security in malls, car lots, music shows or empty buildings in this country.
 
Referring to the US, yep!
Not to be cold but a warm body soaking up bullets between my kids and a shooter gets my approval.

Would teachers be effective? Maybe. If I took half an hour and did some research I guarantee I can fill this page with examples of every day citizens with ccw permits that have either stopped crime or protected themselves from harm.
Here's one;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/23/phoenix-boy-14-shoots-armed-intruder-while-watching-three-younger-siblings.html
Phoenix boy, 14, shoots armed intruder while watching three younger siblings



I'm fine with armed teachers. It doesn't seem to be that pressing of an issue (yet) up here. More for the US it seems like improved mental health care, a better  more robust reporting system and police department SOP reviews would save a lot of these lives. Also maybe look at the availability of firearms and ways to  to address them finding their way into wrong hands.


 

mariomike

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pbi said:
Good points MarioMike. But, nothing personal, I really don't buy the "arming teachers" thing as a truly useful measure. To me, the issue is to stop these people before they even get into the school at all. Once in the school, amongst hundreds of people in a maze of rooms and corridors, it becomes much more difficult, and IMHO the possibility of collateral deaths and injuries goes way up.

And, yes, good question about the guards. My theoretical answer lies in the training and experience of these guards, and the ROE each state's law would permit. Clearly not just Joe the Rent-a-Cop. I haven't analyzed it further than that.

Always best if a shooter can be stopped at point of entry.

Even better if an attempt can be prevented in the first place.

As the NRA says, "Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun."

That certainly applies to armed robbery. eg: Armoured truck guards.

( Reminds me of what a truck guard told me during a coffee stop ( I asked him about a new style holster I was unfamiliar with ).
In no uncertain terms he explained exactly how fast he was - not on drawing his gun - but on surrendering it!:)


For mass shooters armed with AR 15's with high capacity magazines ( especially if they are suicidal ), I believe the time will come - if it is not here already - that they may have to seriously consider routinely deploying the National Guard. I'm not sure local police can afford the resources.

That sounds far-fetched. But, they are already talking about hiring veterans.

Sometimes you have to fight fire(power) with even greater fire(power).

Of course, the Las Vegas sniper massacre was a different situation.
 

Jarnhamar

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I'd be hesitant with the "hire veterans" idea, or at least not rush in to supporting it
-Veteran is an an ambiguous term ranging from a 30 year Special Operations retiree to someone who couldn't pass basic training.
-roll creep may be a big concern
-mental health issues or concerns
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
I'd be hesitant with the "hire veterans" idea, or at least not rush in to supporting it
-Veteran is an an ambiguous term ranging from a 30 year Special Operations retiree to someone who couldn't pass basic training.
-roll creep may be a big concern
-mental health issues or concerns

True. Ideally, police officers aka "School Resource Officers" ( SROs ) would be deployed to schools.

I think the talk about paying teachers a bonus, or hiring private armed security or veterans was suggested because of the cost factor when compared to police.

But, as they say, "you get what you pay for."

QUOTE

"You give them a little bit of a bonus, so practically for free, you have now made the school into a hardened target,” Mr. Trump said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/politics/trump-guns-school-shootings.html

END QUOTE
 

Journeyman

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mariomike said:
I think the talk about paying teachers a bonus, or hiring private security or veterans was suggested because - presumably - they would cost less than police. effectively addressing the underlying issues would cost votes.
      :2c:
 

mariomike

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garb811 said:
In addition to what Recceguy said, there needs to be some caution to jumping to conclusions as to how this person reacted for a few reasons (without getting too specific about TTPs):

The POTUS used the word "coward".
https://www.google.ca/search?q=trump+deputy+coward&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A2%2F23%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A2%2F23%2F2018&tbm=
 

Old Sweat

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While I don't have all the facts, I am getting the impression that the mass dumping on the police officer stationed at the school is being used to draw attention away from some other dubious decisions by various agencies.

For whatever it is worth, I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters. Sorry for the above sentence which is Trans-Canada Highwayish in length.

There may be more to this.
 

mariomike

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Old Sweat said:
I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters.

Columbine led to a change in tactics,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=tGKQWqegJMnSjwSh042ACw&q=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&oq=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&gs_l=psy-ab.3...35013.46084.0.46391.29.29.0.0.0.0.205.4225.0j28j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.28.3992...0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i263k1j0i20i263k1j0i22i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.26AVKJH0Soc

 

FJAG

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Old Sweat said:
. . .
For whatever it is worth, I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters. . . .

mariomike said:
Columbine led to a change in tactics,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=tGKQWqegJMnSjwSh042ACw&q=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&oq=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&gs_l=psy-ab.3...35013.46084.0.46391.29.29.0.0.0.0.205.4225.0j28j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.28.3992...0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i263k1j0i20i263k1j0i22i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.26AVKJH0Soc

Also see here re Immediate Action Rapid Deployment tactics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immediate_Action_Rapid_Deployment

I'm not about to second guess either the issue of whether or not Broward County properly implemented, equipped and trained its people on IARD or on Peterson's action or lack of action (I'll leave that to the measured tweets that emanate from POTUS) but it strikes me that sitting behind cement pillar outside the school while shots are being fired inside are probably contrary to the tactic. It seems to me that as the Sheriff's on-site School Resource officer assigned to the high school would be the one individual there who ought to have been familiar with and assigned to take action in accordance with IARD tactics.

:cheers:
 

mariomike

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Jarnhamar said:
There were an estimated 40,100 motor vehicle deaths last year, or a drop of 1 percent from the prior year.

That's tragic. But, I was remembering how bad it was in the early 1970's, and with fewer resources to respond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year#Motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Also,

QUOTE

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
(CNN) — When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school,
Coral Springs sources tell CNN.

END QUOTE
 

Furniture

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mariomike said:
(CNN) — When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school,
Coral Springs sources tell CNN.

END QUOTE

This is the sad part of it all, they accepted the pay given to them to risk their lives to save others, but when it came down to doing the deed they hid. I get that shooting to kill a person is hard for almost everybody, but at least attempting to get inside the school isn't asking too much of those we pay to protect us.
 

daftandbarmy

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WeatherdoG said:
This is the sad part of it all, they accepted the pay given to them to risk their lives to save others, but when it came down to doing the deed they hid. I get that shooting to kill a person is hard for almost everybody, but at least attempting to get inside the school isn't asking too much of those we pay to protect us.

1) Bad training, and
2) Worse leadership

All the more reason to stand up some kind of special police force to protect Americans who classify as 'soft targets', such as school kids, against nuts with guns (as opposed to gun nuts).
 
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